Mike Petrow:

Welcome back to the Everything Belongs podcast with Father Richard Rohr. Each episode, we travel over to Richard’s house to discuss The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. And then after that, we’re joined by a guest who helps us live the teachings forward, to think about Richard’s teachings in new ways and ask the new questions that arise in a rapidly changing world.

In this episode, I am so excited to talk about chapter three, The Secret of the Remnant, what a timely conversation Paul Swanson and I get to have with Richard in his living room. In this chapter, we are reminded of God’s slow work, always beginning from the edges and the margins of society. There are seasons throughout human history where the majority of Christianity has lost the path, they’ve lost the way, but there’s always been a faithful few who keep the flame burning, and call the rest of the religion and the rest of the world back to that true transformative wisdom.

As you listen to this episode, friends, I would like to invite you to ask yourself, where is the wisdom of the remnant revealing itself right now in the out-of-the-way places? And how are each of us being asked to be a part of that small but mighty remnant? After getting a chance to chat with Richard, I’m joined by Drew Jackson from Brooklyn and the Reverend Dr. Jaqui Lewis joining us from downtown Manhattan in the city that never sleeps. As we talk to her, you can hear the hustle and the bustle of the city in the background.

I am so thrilled to have Jaqui with us in this conversation. She really is a living representative of the remnant right now. Speaking as a pastor who uses her voice for fierce love, Jaqui will remind us that when we un-empire Christianity and move into fierce freedom and fierce love, we truly can be that remnant. Not just for the sake of transforming the society around us, but also in simply being good neighbors to the people right next to us, creating the world that we want to live in, one relationship, one conversation, and one connection at a time.

And then in the end, Drew and I’ll be back with you to talk about the secret of the mustard seed, that in the kingdom of Christ it is always the tiniest things that yield the biggest results. So without further ado, please join Paul Swanson and I as we head over to Richard’s living room to talk about the secret of the remnant. From the Center for Action and Contemplation, I’m Mike Petrow.

Paul Swanson:

I’m Paul Swanson.

Carmen Acevedo Butcher:

I’m Carmen Acevedo Butcher.

Drew Jackson:

And I’m Drew Jackson.

Mike Petrow:

And this is Everything Belongs. Richard, we are here today discussing one of my favorite chapters, one that really feels like it was written for such a time as this, and that’s chapter three, A Critical Mass: The Secret of the Remnant. So first, I’d love to talk about what you mean by the remnant, Richard. I’m going to read some of you to you.

You write, “God is saving all of history and all of humanity, but only with the direct conscious help of a faithful few. This revelation of the remnant presents an utterly counterintuitive theme that a humble minority is always the critical stand-in for God’s big truth, and the group through which God is working change. We might think of the remnant as what scientists call a critical mass. The amount that activate the energy in a chemical reaction, or in this context, the energy in the larger group. The critical mass in biblical theology is always the small edgy group that carries history forward almost in spite of the whole. They’re not just a critical minority, but a largely hidden critical minority, the remnant and a critical mass, which we are all and always invited to join and protect.” So Richard, what do you mean by the remnant? This is so good.

Richard Rohr:

Well, again, it’s one of those biblical surprises, that it’s not majority rule like we Americans would think is the highest moral position we can imagine. It’s, in fact, minority truth. Some called it back in the ’70s, The Mustard Seed Conspiracy. Jesus uses the term the mustard seed or the leaven to describe his own group. They’re never the empire, it’s never Christendom. What made us rush to create Christendom when he never taught that?

The principle behind it all is very few humans can handle power. Very few egos can handle power. So you got to be careful who you give it to. So we created our American Constitution, which highly limited the power of any one group. We still see it can be manipulated. So what does God do? He gives God to the only ones who can be entrusted with it. The powerless. Surprise of surprises. Those who don’t need it too much.

I used to say after 13 years of the seminary, the only people we should ordain priests are those who don’t want to be priests too much. If you want it too much, you probably, probably, that’s a judgment on my part, but came after a lot of observation, probably those who need it too much for their own ego purposes. How do you find out who doesn’t need it too much? Who just wants to use it to serve?

It should make us very humble in our evaluation of the little ones, as Jesus calls them in the New Testament. The little ones are the children who are defined as those without power in Jewish culture. They had nothing to say, they had no right to say it, and Jesus treats them kindly, seems to be willing to listen to them. It’s a great surprise. It’s a great turning on its head of where the truth really lies, and it lasts to this day.

Mike Petrow:

If I’m understanding you correctly, you talked in the last chapter about the bias towards the bottom, which Jesus always has. And it seems that the truth of Christianity, for example, has very often been most clearly expressed by those who are on the margins.

My question is, does this imply that there are huge seasons in history, in the history of our religion, that the majority of the folks who claim the title Jew or Christian are not actually a part of that minority remnant who’s holding the true…?

Richard Rohr:

I’m afraid it looks that way. Who am I to judge? Then I become the powerful majority that’s judging who’s right and who’s wrong, but it’s just to create a cautionary reticence in all of us about where the truth lies. Who has it?

It’s like an English murder mystery. It’s always a surprise who the murderer is. Well, for us, it’s always a surprise where a sanctity is. And it isn’t always the priesthood or the episcopacy, or the ordained, or they educated.

Mike Petrow:

It’s encouraging to remember that the remnant is not often where we think is. It’s also encouraging to remember that the remnant is usually out there. I had a really, really good friend.

Richard Rohr:

Yes, good. Thanks for saying that.

Mike Petrow:

Yeah. A good friend asked me two nights ago, he said, “When you look around at everything that’s happening in the world right now and in the culture, how can you possibly associate yourself with anything that has the name Christian on it?” And I was like, “It’s a good question, but I refuse to give up on it because I see where the true light of it is shining.”

I think about that story, I don’t remember if it was Elijah or Elisha, I think it was Elijah, where the sort of the whole culture had turned and he’s praying and he goes, “I’m the only one left.” And God says to him, “Yet, I reserve 7,000 who have not yet bowed their knee.” And so remembering that, one, to our listeners, you’re not alone, and the remnant is out there, and then often it’s not where you think it is.

Paul Swanson:

Yeah, I think that’s one of the things I appreciate about this chapter, is because to take it seriously, we have to ask the question, how are we being asked to join the remnant right now?

Richard Rohr:

Yes, yes.

Paul Swanson:

Because if there’s no official entry, there’s no ticket to be paid.

Richard Rohr:

No, that’s it. There’s no badges of uniform or diploma. It’s to trust littleness, to trust invisibility, to trust the non-influencers. You have to be trained in that. You have to train yourself in that. Look in the corner where no one’s looking. In my years on the road, I learned to recognize these little people who’d come up not at the first break, demanding your attention.

I’m not saying they weren’t okay too, but it was invariably this little old lady who’d come up toward the end of the day and just glow with freedom and love. She didn’t demand to be heard. She just took joy in living that. So I learned to place my sight there, these little people who are usually smiling, big smile. So that appealed my ego, of course. “Why is she smiling at what I’m saying?” But it was at what I’m saying, not at me.

Paul Swanson:

You say this so densely and beautifully when you say in your book, “Yahweh works slowly and humbly to reform any society, starting from the edges and the bottom. And so that’s the place to look for the remnant. Where is there life at the edges and the bottom?” Does that true?

Richard Rohr:

I believe that’s true now at the end of my life more than ever. Don’t be so impressed by success. It becomes a love affair with itself.

Mike Petrow:

We talked about this in our last episode, how overwhelming collective evil can be. So many friends of mine in the last few weeks are responding by saying, “I’m trying to find something that I can do right in front of me. Where can I volunteer regularly? What good people can I connect with to create the community that I want the world to be around me?” Finding their bucket in the bucket brigade. And then also, really, really, really creating the love and the change that they want. Small first. Right around them. Right around them.

Richard Rohr:

I’m glad you used that word, volunteer. Trust volunteerism. People who do it without a salary, without notice. I was sitting on my porch here yesterday talking to this lovely couple, they’re in their 60s, they raised three boys, and they clean this parking lot every day. Every day. And no one’s noticing it. They don’t seem to care.

Now they’re letting their little granddaughter walk with them and they come over to show her off to me each day. Oh, they just give me such hope. They don’t fight any of the parish politics. I don’t know what groups they belong to. I think it’s pure volunteerism. Even on a rainy day we had a few days ago, they were out there with their little buckets. They’re just a wonder to me, just a wonder, that’s the mustard seed conspiracy.

Paul Swanson:

That volunteerism is kind of the Franciscan way, right? Weren’t Franciscans-

Richard Rohr:

Well, it took the form of beggary.

Paul Swanson:

Beggary.

Richard Rohr:

Yeah, yeah, beggary. “Be the beggars on the edge of society more than the producers.” We used to have a saying, forgive us, “We Franciscans do everything poorly. We do everything poorly.”

Mike Petrow:

Man, I didn’t know I was a Franciscan.

Richard Rohr:

And we took pride to that. And we laughed at it, that we couldn’t operate with the proficiency, the productivity of the Jesuits. We were Avis, we were the second-biggest order. The Jesuits were the biggest.

Paul Swanson:

I want to ask you about, you mentioned a few times in this chapter as you talk about the remnant, you say that, “The remnant enjoys its stewardship consciously.” Can you tease that up a little bit, about the enjoyment of being a part of the stewardship of that remnant versus just the knowledge of it? I think about the example you just gave of these folks-

Richard Rohr:

Those couple.

Paul Swanson:

… you were clearly enjoying their enjoyment of their volunteerism. What is it about the ability to consciously recognize your enjoyment of participation versus just the knowledge of what one supposedly should be doing, and how is that connected to the remnant?

Richard Rohr:

I don’t know where that comes from, except the spirit of Jesus has rubbed off on you. “I did not come to be served, but to serve.” Some people get that, and they’re the ones you can most trust with roles and membership and titles, precisely because they don’t… And costumes. Because they don’t need it. They don’t want it, even.

Paul Swanson:

As we hold the conversation from the last conversation around on the collective evil. And we think about how we felt the flooding of that in our own conversation and-

Mike Petrow:

Absolutely.

Paul Swanson:

… one of, I think, the typical outcomes of that kind of conversation is you can look for a scapegoat. One person can become the personification of how that happens.

Mike Petrow:

We’ve got some real easy ones right now with culture, too.

Paul Swanson:

Yeah, we do. We do. And that’s a temptation that we can all acknowledge. And in this chapter, Richard, you mentioned the idea of the scapegoat, of finding that one person to blame for all collective evil.

Richard Rohr:

For all, yeah.

Paul Swanson:

And we can punish them, then we might feel a little bit better along the way. Let’s start by asking you again just to define what do you mean by scapegoating?

Richard Rohr:

Well, the word itself came, interestingly enough, from Judaism, the escaping goat. Leviticus 16 has a genius of a ritual that was practiced only once a year on the Day of Atonement. Poor little goat was bound up drug into the Holy of Holies, and the high priest laid his hands upon the goat and put on him all the sins of the past year of the Jewish nation. And then with great joy, apparently, the congregation whipped the goat into the wilderness. It apparently worked.

We have eliminated evil, we have excluded evil. The poor goat was apparently beaten to death or left to starve, with his head caught in the thorns, as one Targum says. It breaks your heart for the poor goat. What a misplacement of attention, huh? Let’s not look at the sins of Israel, which is what the Jewish prophets did, but the sins of a goat? It’s almost too convenient.

So that became our English word, scapegoat. In German, they call it the sin goat, sundenbock, and then it became a psychological term. Carl Jung, again, always has a word to explain human dynamics, and he says, “The temptation to project your own unwanted shadow onto someone else, some other group, is universal.” And Rene Girard says, “It’s found in every culture, to hate someone else so you can be pure.” It’s heartbreaking once you realize how true it is.

Mike Petrow:

I’m so intrigued, Richard. You say in this chapter that, “Jesus’ teaching sets in motion what I would like to call the biblical pattern of anti-scapegoating.”

Richard Rohr:

That’s right.

Mike Petrow:

“Preemptive self-criticism, a learned capacity to see your own shadow.” How do we practice anti-scapegoating and looking at our own shadow?

Richard Rohr:

Watch how you respond to criticism. Almost learn to welcome it, because that reveals how you’re going to deal with your own sin. Welcome criticism, at least in your heart. You don’t have to be ostentatious about it, and you notice very few people do. Very few people take criticism well. And if you don’t, Carl Jung sees to be saying you with certitude will project it elsewhere. The unrecognized unnamed shadow will be hated elsewhere. It’s an unconscious dynamic. It’s hidden that you project what you don’t like in yourself somewhere else. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. That’s the price of enlightenment. It’s a heavy price, ’cause now you’re burdened with positive self-criticism.

Mike Petrow:

Well, and that makes sense that Jesus also talks so stridently against hypocrisy, right? Which could be criticizing others for the very thing that you do, or the thing that you’re guilty of without being aware of that. Why do you see the speck in your friend’s eye?

Richard Rohr:

Speck in your brother’s eye, and you don’t see the log and you don’t see the log in your own. He clearly understands the scapegoat mechanism.

Mike Petrow:

It’s also brilliant too because the log in your own eye can mean that what’s going on in your eye is 10 times the size of what’s happening in the other person, probably does. But also, if you put your finger towards your eye, the closer and closer it gets, the bigger and bigger it gets. So it looks like there’s a log coming right at your eye until it gets so close to you that you can’t see it at all. And that’s the thing, some things are so close to us and so obvious to everyone else, and we just can’t see them.

Paul Swanson:

Relationships are such a great ground for how we interrogate this and integrate this personally with those nearest and dearest so that we can also practice it in larger arenas as well.

Richard Rohr:

Very good.

Paul Swanson:

Because I’ve started to learn a lot about what comes up in me when my wife has usually a very on point criticism. How do I receive that? How do my walls go up?

Richard Rohr:

What is it?

Paul Swanson:

Practices that I can do, questions I can ask myself in the moment to maybe give me the space to respond in reception rather than an all out attack or defense attack? ‘Cause I can see that in larger figures, but it’s in those occasions when I see it in myself.

Richard Rohr:

Perfect.

Paul Swanson:

Richard, I’m curious, so even while the prophet refuses to let the collective off the hook by speaking against scapegoating, does the prophet ever become the scapegoat themself? It sounds dangerous to step into this prophetic voice, because the question remains, are you signing up to be scapegoated potentially by the collective?

Richard Rohr:

Probably with certitude. Whoever critiques their own group is considered a heretic, unloyal, disobedient, prideful. No group accepts criticism, maybe even more than personal, and that’s why Jesus, you killed all the prophets. They don’t have a good record of success.

Mike Petrow:

Or survival at least.

Richard Rohr:

Or survival.

Paul Swanson:

There is something about prophets being an outsider on the inside. They aren’t fully accepted because they’re not going to play the game.

Mike Petrow:

Prophets never accepted in their own home town either, right? There’s a sort of a-

Richard Rohr:

In their own group, he said, doesn’t change. Jesus knew human nature, and the prophets taught him some of that.

Mike Petrow:

It’s in this book, Richard, I experience you inviting us in to use the prophetic voice and to be this remnant, and that does sound dangerous, like what we’re talking about, and it sounds like we need more than just courage to call us to the dangerous and risky work of being the remnant. So, I feel like when I get to the end of this chapter and you start talking about Hosea, it seems like that you’re telling us that what gives us the courage and commitment to step into this dangerous space is love. I love how this shows up in the prophet Hosea.

You write, “Divine love becomes for the prophets the standard for God’s relationship with God’s people. And it’ll be taken up by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the Song of Songs,” my favorite, “And the majority of Christian mystics down to the present age, evolving into the Sacred heart spirituality in its many forms today. But Hosea was the first prophet to clearly move the tradition from law to heart, from the parent-child dynamic to spousal intimacy.” So Richard, let’s start with the bottom of that. What can you tell us about this movement from parent-child love to spousal love?

Richard Rohr:

It can still be, I suspect, two sentimentalized when it’s still parent to child. Who doesn’t love cute little kids?

Mike Petrow:

Sure.

Richard Rohr:

But once it becomes spousal, it’s love between adults or equals, and it’s God treating us as an adult, capable of prostitution, as the prophets call it. Not just capable of it, guilty of it.

Mike Petrow:

Sure. Selling our soul to culture. Yeah.

Richard Rohr:

Loving other things than Yahweh, and using the divine human love as the template for how to judge human love, too. Humanly human.

Mike Petrow:

I like the idea of moving from, well again, we’re told to be like little children and God is father, God is mother is beautiful and helpful imagery, but I like the idea of moving beyond this sort of, “God is universal parent who’s here to meet my needs and protect me from suffering,” to instead this more dignified, more adult relationship, that per what you just described, will have challenges and difficulty. And we don’t stay in it for protection, safety, only getting our needs met.

Richard Rohr:

Unless we move toward adult Christianity. We have what we call in the Catholic world, religious of popular devotion. Sentimental Christian art. Sentimental understanding of saints. Sentimental is cheap emotion. It’s not emotion that was earned by suffering, refined by suffering. That’s what adult relationships and adult conflict and adult hurt feelings teach you.

Paul Swanson:

Your point about the sentimentalizing I think is so important, because sentimentalizing starts to bring us towards nostalgia, which is not present in reality with what is happening, and I think that is part of the gift of Hosea revealing this divine love. Can you speak to that, the narrative form of that, about what that is teaching us, ’cause it’s not sentimental?

Mike Petrow:

Yeah, it’s romantic, but it’s not sentimental at all.

Paul Swanson:

Can you share-

Richard Rohr:

I will lead you into the wilderness and there I will speak to your heart. Wilderness, I guess if you’re married, that means months of hurt feelings maybe, where it isn’t working, where I don’t feel love, where I don’t feel loved. That’s the wilderness. What else could it be? We romanticize it as desert spirituality.

Paul Swanson:

Yeah, the unpredictability of it.

Richard Rohr:

Unpredictability.

Paul Swanson:

Uncontrollable.

Richard Rohr:

Uncontrollable.

Mike Petrow:

Yeah.

Richard Rohr:

Yeah.

Mike Petrow:

I’m reading this great book right now, which I don’t know why I’ve never read before. It’s written by Boethius who’s a Roman philosopher.

Richard Rohr:

Oh yes.

Mike Petrow:

The Consolation of Philosophy. Right?

Richard Rohr:

Yes.

Mike Petrow:

So anybody listening, sounds like the most boring title ever. It’s gorgeous. And Boethius is a Roman senator who speaks against a corrupt emperor for a long time, and then the emperor just gets tired of him and frames him for a crime, throws him in jail to be executed, and he is eventually executed, but while he’s in jail, it’s like a mix of John of the cross and Job. While he’s in jail, he’s writing all this poetry about how heartbroken he is and how fortune has deserted him. And then a woman shows up who’s both young and old, and tall and short and beautiful, and he realizes its wisdom. And she says, “One, did you think I would desert you here? And two, did you think this wouldn’t happen?” And she said-

Richard Rohr:

I never knew this history of Boethius.

Mike Petrow:

Oh, it’s such a good story. Such a good story. She says to him, “I’ve been doing war forever against proud stupidity,” but then she lists all these different folks who’ve spoken for truth and ended up executed or thrown in jail. But she says, “But sometimes this is where this leads, but I haven’t abandoned you.” And it’s such a beautiful-

Richard Rohr:

And he finally dies?

Mike Petrow:

They do, they execute him, but he dies well, because he writes this book before they execute him about this experience, whether it’s poetic or literal for him of being reminded. She keeps saying, “You’ve forgotten who you are.” And he remembers that he’s not about success. He didn’t make the choices he made. He didn’t speak truth to power to succeed. He did it ’cause it was wise and it was right.

Richard Rohr:

You’re a wonder that you read these books that no one reads anymore.

Paul Swanson:

Oh, that was our fact-

Richard Rohr:

We call him the father of natural theology.

Mike Petrow:

Oh, really?

Richard Rohr:

Boethius.

Mike Petrow:

Oh, that’s cool.

Richard Rohr:

Yeah.

Mike Petrow:

That’s good to know. No, Carmen, our faculty member turned me onto it. I’ve been loving it. But that reminder that the goal isn’t always success. Right?

Richard Rohr:

It’s never success, unless you’re fixing machine, I guess. You’d like some success.

Mike Petrow:

Yeah, fair.

Richard Rohr:

But in human relationships, the goal is not success.

Paul Swanson:

Right? You read the Beatitudes. It doesn’t sound like a recipe for success.

Richard Rohr:

That’s right. There you go.

Mike Petrow:

Well, yeah. And this is the Consolation of Philosophy, which is the love of wisdom, and it’s Sophia, wisdom in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible who shows up as this woman. The love of wisdom in this sense, the love of God, the love of justice is what calls us to be a part of the remnant, not necessarily the fact that we’re going to get results. I think that’s my wondering. Yeah.

Richard Rohr:

Very good.

Mike Petrow:

How do you think, Richard, love is really crucial for helping us recognize and remain in the remnant?

Richard Rohr:

See, love is the conquering of the ego. The ego cannot love ’cause it always wants itself more than the other. Love says no. Can you ever, even for a millisecond, prefer the other to yourself? Doesn’t it come down to that? I think so. Seek their satisfaction, their enjoyment, their good, and that might be the common good to my own personal good.

Mike Petrow:

It reminds me what you said last episode, that the recognition that we don’t scapegoat, but that we critique collective evil is connected to our understanding also of universal or collective salvation. And that idea that I’m not in it for my own personal salvation project. I’m in it for the good of everyone. That shifts the emphasis and it does give more courage to work and speak for what really matters.

Richard Rohr:

That’s why in the book, well, I’m jumping ahead.

Mike Petrow:

Yeah.

Richard Rohr:

With the undoing of reward punishment, until that’s undone, the ego will continue to hide most effectively in religion, most secretly.

Mike Petrow:

Wow.

Paul Swanson:

I love how you close this chapter. I wonder if I could just read this last paragraph.

Richard Rohr:

Oh, I can’t wait to hear what I wrote. What did I write?

Paul Swanson:

I’m now just tempted to make something else up, but this is what you wrote.” Like the people of Ancient Israel, we must remove the obstacles that keep us from recognizing these truth tellers, the critical masses that are speaking in our times. In fact, we must let God circumcise both our years and our hearts so that we can hear them fully. They’re not seeking fame or fortune or they would not be prophets. They’ll never be mainstream. They’ll always be a remnant. But it is their message that they care about, not their reputation or their comfort. They’re supremely orthodox, those with equally circumcised ears and hearts, and probably fools to almost all the rest of us. This will not change.” Richard, how can our listeners attune their ears and hearts to hear the message of the true remnant of Christianity right now?

Richard Rohr:

Here’s where human love becomes the school of divine love, and divine love equally becomes the school of human love. If you let it move both directions, you recognize that your wife forgave you. “Well, if my wife, how much more God, huh?” It becomes a place where you learn that receptivity.

And then vice versa. You experience God’s forgiveness, I hope. And you say, “Well, if God’s going to treat me that way, how many parables of Jesus aren’t directly on that?” You have experienced mercy. Now, it’s your job to pass that on, that human mercy is learned from the school of divine mercy.

The kingpin in the whole thing is divine. The entrance of the divine into the human school unlocks everything. Everything. If you just have a religion of law, I’d say leave. It’s going to destroy you more than help you. Until you get to a religion of love, it’s no good, or ritual.

I see this parking lot fill up four times every weekend, and they’re so sweet, they wave back at me, but I really wonder, is it the ritual they came for? Not that that’s wrong, but is the ritual leading them to the way of love? I don’t know. I don’t know. As sweet as they are to me, I’d be tempted to think that it’s working little by little by little, edging them toward love.

Mike Petrow:

Well, if this chapter can be believed, you only need a few people to get it.

Richard Rohr:

There you go.

Mike Petrow:

To create the transformation.

Richard Rohr:

And that ties it together, Michael. Yeah.

Paul Swanson:

Yeah, we started with that quote of, “Yahweh works slowly and humbly to reform any society, starting from the edges and the bottom.”

Richard Rohr:

The edges and the bottom.

Mike Petrow:

One of my favorite stories from Buddhism, as the Buddha is about to achieve enlightenment, in one version of the story, the tempter character, like essentially that version of the devil, shows up to try to tempt the Buddha to not achieve enlightenment. So throws things that Buddha already said no to, all these different temptations. And then the last thing, the last temptation is to say, “Hey, you know what? Why don’t you just fully achieve enlightenment and leave, ’cause no one’s going to understand what you’re talking about anyway?” And in one version of the story, Buddha touches his fingers to the ground and he says, “There will be some who understand, and that’s enough.”

Richard Rohr:

Oh, there’s the same message, and that’s enough.

Mike Petrow:

And that’s enough. Reminds me of that verse that says, “I send you out a sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.” And I think we’re inviting our listeners to be a part of the some who understand the best that they can, and to-

Richard Rohr:

The best that they can.

Mike Petrow:

Yeah. May we all be a part-

Richard Rohr:

That’s what God seems to expect.

Mike Petrow:

May we all be a part of the remnant. May we see it and be it.

Richard Rohr:

Yeah.

Paul Swanson:

May it be so.

Mike Petrow:

May it be so.

Richard Rohr:

Hallelujah.

Mike Petrow:

Everything Belongs will continue in a moment.

Friends, I am so excited about our guest today, my dear friend and teacher, the Reverend Dr. Jaqui Lewis. Jaqui is a womanist theologian who uses her gifts as an author, an activist, a preacher, and a public theologian, towards creating an anti-racist, just, gun violence-free, fully welcoming, gender-affirming society in which everyone has enough. What a bio right there.

Jaqui is the senior minister at Middle Collegiate Church and the author of several books, including the magnificent Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage, and Rule Breaking Kindness that Can Heal the World. And of course, Jaqui’s the host of the podcast Love Period brought to you by the Center for Action and Contemplation, which is a great place to hear more of her much-needed prophetic voice. Let’s get into it as we join our dear friend Drew Jackson and the Reverend Dr. Jaqui Lewis.

I am so excited, Jaqui, that you agreed to join us here on the Everything Belongs Podcast. When I read this chapter on the remnant, first of all, I recognize three things right away, okay? One, it was for me one of the most important chapters in the book, maybe the most important chapter for the moment we’re in.

And it really struck me, secondly, as describing what feels like exactly the moment that we find ourselves in on this point in the calendar, in this point in the planet. Where a small but mighty remnant would be shining the light of the gospel of love, while a majority of what claimed to be Christianity would be co-opted to support the very opposite ends and aims of the gospel.

And so the third thing I knew, Jaqui, was that you were the person I wanted to talk to about this chapter, as a pastor and a true voice and representative of the remnant, and someone who’s not afraid to put the critical in the critical mass. So I have to ask you to start, how do you think we are in a remnant moment right now?

Jaqui Lewis:

Thank you so much for that, Mike. My brain today, this day as we’re talking, is filled with this kind of combination of grief and hope. As we record, there was a weekend of protests all across the country, protesting MAGA policies, I’ll say. Not Republican policies, but MAGA policies. 1,000 protests all over the country.

You know I live in New York, but my husband and I have a little house in Jersey and decided to go spy on our New Jersey neighbors to see what they were up to. And out near this mall called Bridgewater, about a mile of highway, are all of these nice white people. And they were nice white people. There were four Black people, including me, in this crowd.

Now, to be sure a lot of African American folks decided to sit this one out, because like I told you, we told you, “This isn’t going to go so well.” So I want to talk about these progressive white people as a remnant in a way that our culture is so raced right now, and it’s understandably so.

We could get to Black and white and not think about African American MAGA supporters, or not think of Hispanic MAGA supporters, and we could think all the white people are, but here were these people with their children in the drizzling rain. Here were these people, quiet people. They didn’t start chanting until I started chanting, ’cause I’m a chanter. I was so taken by what it meant for them to be white people living in suburban New Jersey who were a remnant of Jesus’ followers.

Enough to stand apart, stand away, be set apart, Ecclesia, if you will, called out to serve the brown Jewish Palestinian rabbi. In a sea of whiteness, they came out. It is remnant time. It’s Otis Moss III, African American, my younger brother preaching about this same topic and deciding that his church is going to send donations to the African American History Museum in DC to keep it alive. It’s remnant time. It’s a woke famous, brilliant activist coming to a church, preaching this radical love, an emissary for love. Those are three things that come to mind when I think about remnant time, Mike.

Mike Petrow:

Senator Cory Booker recently quoted the adage, “The power the people is greater than the people in power,” which sounds like remnant wisdom to me. How do you think that’s true for us right now? Or how do we need to be reminded of that?

Jaqui Lewis:

I think that two things are important. I think the tears of the prophets are prophetic grief tears. It’s prophetic grief. And I think it’s super important that we not give into despair, because in my folks’ tradition, Black folks’ religion, we say, “Trouble don’t last always.” We remind ourselves that weeping might last for a night, but joy comes in the morning.

But neither do we create a facade of hope, because a facade of hope isn’t hope. I think remnant wisdom is remembering, remembering. We’ve been here, we’ve been in this hole, we know how to get out. We’ve been in the times of trouble and we know how to get out. We’ve been to the bottom of the hurt of our souls and we know how to get out, and we know that our God is able to do more than we can ask or imagine.

So this kind of assault on history, right? All this kind of like, let’s erase all these stories, let’s erase these books, let’s erase the Underground Railroad for God’s sake from the National Park Registry. If we don’t allow our history to be erased, we people of faith, if we remind ourselves of all the ways that God has shown up for God’s people all across time, our memory is remnant wisdom.

Drew Jackson:

When you first started sharing, and then even in your response to Mike’s second question, you mentioned both this grief and hope as this thread. And one of the things that Richard talks about, and the main threads in his book, is that he talks about how anger and injustice often has deep sadness underneath of it.

Jaqui Lewis:

Sure.

Drew Jackson:

And underneath of both of those is this strong foundation of love. So, I just wanted to ask you, how are those three things co-mingling in you right now?

Jaqui Lewis:

It’s a great question to grief, hope and love. When you say co-mingle, it makes me think about some of our Good Friday hymns, this co-mingling of grief and blood and sorrow. I think it’s because we love hard that we grieve hard. I think the space between the world we know we can have, the kingdom of God on earth, the space between the now and that not yet, what is existing as world empire theology versus what God wants for us, that space is the grief that breaks our hearts.

And in the place where our hearts are cracked wide open, I said this morning to some folks, that also is the place from which our superpowers grow. And maybe our greatest superpower is love, right? It’s love that wants our neighbor to be well. It’s love that makes us desire a safe place for all the kids. It’s love that makes us angry and frustrated and sad about the war-torn places in the globe. It’s love that gives us such frustration about lying and the lack of truth. So, if we don’t disconnect ourselves, if we remind ourselves that love is the force that animates our hope for justice. And what some folks want to do is act like anger is wrong, but anger at wrong is right.

Mike Petrow:

That’s so helpful. I really, really appreciate being reminded that if we are angry or sad, it is because something we love is at stake. We find ourselves in a religion where God is love is one of the most important core components to it. And yet, Richard often says that we’re still sort of living in a baby Christianity that has to grow up. And I’m not sure we’ve really grown up into this notion that God is love, and certainly not into fierce love. So Jaqui, how is it a part of remnant wisdom to see and live as if God is fierce love? How does that challenge and change Christianity for us?

Jaqui Lewis:

When I was writing Fierce Love before I started calling it Fierce Love, I thought I was writing a book called Getting a Grown-Up God, but my friend, Valarie Kaur, read a couple of manuscripts and said, “Is the God you’re talking about a more grown-up God or is it your more child-like God?” This blew my mind wide open. And it took me to a story about my mother, which I may have told you at some point, Mike, but the very first time I took Communion or Eucharist, I was sitting next to my mom, I was eight.

And I was in this beautiful church of multi-ethnic church, but a pastor who loved kids, and Communion was coming. And my mother leaned over to me when the bread came and said, “This bread means God will always love you,” and then I ate it. “God will always love you.” A taste of honey in my mouth and, “God will always love you.”

And then the cup came by, and it was those little cups, and it was Welch’s grape juice, of course, and she said, “This cup means God will never leave you.” So now I’ve got puckery grape juice in my mouth and God will never leave me. Come and taste and see. This honey bread and this puckery grape juice, and this God who will always love me, and God who will never leave me is the foundation of my grown-up theology.

My grown-up theology is ensconced in my little girl God, the God who I met, who didn’t have expectations, who didn’t have demands, who just loved me just as I am without one plea. I think God is love is the most grown-up and simple, elemental, primordial. We knew that before we were born, that God was love. We knew that before we could speak, that God is love.

That is everything. It’s the bedrock of our faith. And that God who is love loves everyone. And I think why we don’t like that is ’cause we want God to be on our sports team and hate the opposing team, but in fact, God is love kind of means love is godly.

Mike Petrow:

Oh man, that’s so good. That’s so good.

Jaqui Lewis:

That’ll just put us out of business. Right?

Mike Petrow:

Well, and I just-

Jaqui Lewis:

Once everybody gets God is love, what else is there to say?

Mike Petrow:

Look, I feel like we’re living in a moment where there is great foolishness on display, and I appreciate that much more the wisdom of the gospel that is foolishness to the world. And so thank you for pointing out both the childlike and the grown-up nature of the wisdom of love.

Drew Jackson:

And I hope it’s not a spoiler to share this, but recently you shared with us that these days you’re thinking about fierce freedom.

Jaqui Lewis:

Yes, I am.

Drew Jackson:

And what does fierce freedom look like? And what does fierce freedom have to do with fierce love?

Jaqui Lewis:

I think about, again, just kind of this developmental child space. Donald Winnicott is a psychologist that I really love, and this idea that our parents make a container for us to become. The first container is the womb, maybe the second container’s the mother’s or father’s arms, and the third container might be like the big playground, and the next containers are life. The space between us and the source is life. It’s a container for us to become. If love is the container, if fierce love is the container, imagine the fierce freedom that comes from knowing you are loved so deeply by a love so amazing and so divine all you can do is practice being your best self.

Instead of feeling impinged and constrained and shut down, you’re like, “Oh my God, I am loved by this power in the world called love. God loves me. I am free to play with the boundaries of in and out. I’m free to open my heart to all the ones who are outside. I’m free to open the church to all the ones who are outside. I’m free to let go of norms that seek to understand more, who doesn’t belong and to create spaces where people do belong. I’m free to say out loud, ‘No, that’s not acceptable to do that to my neighbor, and not worry about the recriminations. I’m free to be prophetic. I’m free to cry tears, but I’m also free to rip, to tear down boundaries and borders that are unjust. I’m free to make freedom available for all of us.” That’s what I mean by fierce freedom.

Drew Jackson:

It sounds like the opposite of empire Christianity, of what empire does, the building up of walls, the putting people, “You’re outside. These are the insiders.” And I’ve heard you talk about this notion of unempowering Christianity, and so I just would love if you could say a little bit more about what does that mean?

Jaqui Lewis:

Yeah, we constructed this thing that wasn’t what Jesus was doing at all, period. I wouldn’t say that necessarily was an evil intent. I’m not saying that. I think all of us translate, contextualize what we’re hearing so it’s palatable, so it’s understandable, so we can take it in so we can ingest it, but when Christianity becomes a state religion of Rome, it loses something right then. It just does. It becomes Catholic, meaning universal, but it also becomes the empire’s theological constructs, too.

And if it weren’t that Rome was in power, if it was that Palestine or Israel was in power, maybe what we would’ve gotten that first time around would’ve been more at Jesus’s taste. But what we got, what we have is household codes that were in the time of Rome to keep everybody in their place, getting put in a canon, and then suddenly wives have to shut up and obey their men, and the slaves are supposed to obey their masters. And it’s in there, we know it’s in there.

And Drew, you and I are both Black and we would never be thinking that we’re supposed to obey some masters right now. In the same way that that’s ridiculous, there’s ridiculousness in the canon that we act like we don’t understand that it came from empire. So we need to have lovingly, fiercely exegetical projects where we start with if God is love, if Jesus’ love made flesh, then what does this have to do with love? And if it doesn’t have to do with love, I think we have to get it out on the table and get it out of our mouths, and get it out of our sermons.

From this innocuous white baby Jesus with sparkles on the Christmas card, how many white baby Jesuses are there in Israel or Palestine? To Jesus’s words, what Jesus is teaching. There’s some truth in there for us that will un-empire, but it takes bravery. It takes courage. It takes rule-breaking courage because we’ve built so much on it. “What? If that’s true, then women can preach, oh my God. If that’s true, the poly doesn’t have to look this way. If that’s true, the ecclesiology doesn’t have to look this way. What?” If that’s true? Imagine an un-empired Christianity.

I’m in the Dutch Reformed Church. I’m not Dutch, but my people are the ones, my ecclesiastical ancestors are the ones who bought Manahatta from the Lenape, meaning stole it. Imagine an un-empired Christianity, Drew and Mike? If they came here that way, the brown Jesus, that doesn’t look like them Jesus, would’ve been on their eyeballs when they were looking around the land and saw all these Indigenous people here. And perhaps maybe they wouldn’t have thought of them as heathens, but they would’ve thought of them as colleagues.

Drew Jackson:

Your words remind me of one of our ancestors, James Baldwin. And James Baldwin said, “If the concept of God has any validity or any use, it can only be to make us larger, freer, and more loving.”

Jaqui Lewis:

You better preach that.

Drew Jackson:

“If God cannot do this, then it is time we got rid of him.”

Jaqui Lewis:

Get a new God, baby. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that’s right, Drew, and James Baldwin, for those who don’t know thought he was a preacher there for a minute, was about to be, maybe would’ve been in a different context, but what a beautiful soul who preached through his writing about the God who is love and wants us to love each other.

Mike Petrow:

Gosh, it’s so profound to think about where in un-empiring Christianity where voices can turn up to give us wisdom. I think about exactly the moment you’re talking about, where the Roman Empire sort of co-opted the entire religion. And the headwaters of our contemplative tradition, the desert fathers and mothers headed out, said, “We don’t want to play this game. We don’t need your power. We don’t need your reward system. We don’t need your worthiness games,” and they headed out into the desert. And I wonder if there’s going to be a lot of different versions of heading out into the desert in the years to come.

But Jaqui, you’re a pastor. Drew and I are both former pastors of many years, and in the time that I’ve known you, I’ve watched you lead your church through a lot. You’ve been leading it for a while and I’ve watched you lead your church through a devastating fire, a pandemic, a building project, which is a cross unto itself.

Jaqui Lewis:

Yes. In the name of Jesus.

Mike Petrow:

Many prayers for you. In the midst of turbulent political times and every kind of global crisis we can imagine, what advice would you give to pastors specifically who maybe do want to pack up and head into the desert right now, but they have people, they have work to do, they have congregations to take care of?

Jaqui Lewis:

I was talking with a wonderful colleague about what it means to liberate the pulpit. We could talk about preaching liberation, but I was saying liberate the pulpit, because I was really talking about liberating ourselves as preachers. So do we have to go to the desert to liberate ourselves? I don’t know. We might have to ask ourselves, “What are we willing to risk to liberate ourselves?” But I don’t think God’s people need some namby-pamby business as usual sermons right now. I don’t think that we need business as usual right now.

I think we need preachers, leaders in the church, musicians, Sunday school teachers to literally ask, “What would Jesus do?” And then we say, “Which Jesus?” And then let’s try to go to Nazareth. Let’s just try to go back to a time that’s not so different from this time, where powers and principalities are raging, where truth is a lie, where the norms of civility are gone, where the care for widow and orphan and neighbor is off the table.

This is a hot mess, and I would love our family who are in the business of constructing theology, growing theological leaders or giving people theological resources to take more risks, to be bold. There’s something really close about justice and judgment. There’s something really important to say, “Everything’s not right. Everything’s not right.” And we don’t have to pretend that… We don’t have a guidebook. Here it is. This is what it is. And no, we’re not going to cut up our daughter and sprinkle them around the world. You know what I mean? That’s not it. But the words of Jesus, the calling in of Yeshua ben Yosef, the words of Jesus, and the behavior of Jesus is a guidebook for how we repair this broken world.

Mike Petrow:

It’s risky and scary for a lot of clergy.

Jaqui Lewis:

It is.

Mike Petrow:

They get pushback from their own congregation, and so necessary, huh?

Jaqui Lewis:

Yes, so again, exegetical rigor from a place of faith and love, preach Jesus.

Mike Petrow:

For all of us then, the priesthood of all believers, everyone listening has similar calling. I’m curious what you would say to the priesthood of all believers, every one of us to step into that role. Or, I will say, you said something the other day that has become my new favorite statement, where you said, “All of us need to be presidential and preside over the healing of the world.”

Jaqui Lewis:

Oh, look at you watching my stuff.

Mike Petrow:

That’s good preaching. What advice would you give for our listeners where they can be the priesthood of believers, but do that, be presidential and preside over the healing of the world?

Jaqui Lewis:

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike. I am a Presbyterian and I really do believe in the priesthood of all believers. I say to my church, “My job is to help you to know that you are a theologian in residence in your own life.” You’re the ethical center of your life because you love God, because you are called by Jesus, so that’s your North Star. You asking yourself, “What would Jesus do?” Would Jesus lie on this tax return? No, no.

Take Jesus with you to the voting booth. Take Jesus with you to work, take Jesus with you to school. And those of you who are listening who don’t do Jesus, okay, when I say Jesus, you say love. “What would love have me do? What would love have me do?” Y’all know love wouldn’t have you doing some of the stuff we do?

You are theologians in your own life, y’all. You don’t need a pastor to help you do Jesus. You could do Jesus, ’cause you got a Bible. And get a better one if you’re reading King James. Not kidding. Just get one that’s got newer, fresher stuff. But in every place we are, we can preside over making a better world. That’s all presidential means. We can be kind to the stranger. We can stand up for when people are being bullied, we can tell the truth, tell the truth, tell the truth, tell the truth.

We can say no to Uncle Bob at the dinner table when he’s being a prejudiced weasel. We can call out our friends when you’re having a cup of coffee or glass of wine, whatever y’all are doing, like, “No honey. No, mm-mm, I don’t agree with that.” I statement is very powerful. “I don’t feel comfortable with that bigotry,” is very powerful. We can do that, can’t we?

Drew Jackson:

We can do it.

Jaqui Lewis:

We can do it.

Drew Jackson:

We can do it.

Jaqui Lewis:

Do Drew.

Drew Jackson:

Whenever I think about this concept of the remnant, I think of the story of Elijah in 1 Kings 19, when he’s fleeing from Ahab and Jezebel to Mount Horeb. And when he gets to the mountain, he begins crying out to God and he says, more or less, “I’m the only one left who hasn’t capitulated to Ahab and Jezebel.”

Jaqui Lewis:

That’s right.

Drew Jackson:

And God’s response to Elijah is to say, “I have 7,000 who have not bowed the knee.”

Jaqui Lewis:

Come on, baby.

Drew Jackson:

They have not bent the knee.

Jaqui Lewis:

Come on. That’s right.

Drew Jackson:

I would love if you could, one, just speak to, one, the loneliness of the remnant, and that feeling of isolation that I am the only one. And also, the necessity of recognizing the 7,000.

Jaqui Lewis:

It’s not easy being free. We like constraints and impingements. Sometimes when we think there’s a box, we don’t have to be brave. And when we choose to be outside of the box to be the remnant, saying the thing, the prophetic thing, we fear we’ll be rejected and we fear there will be consequences, and there will be consequences. That’s what it means to be the living body of Christ. We will be lonely sometimes and we will feel isolated sometimes. And then I say we’re in good company with Jesus.

But also, and this is the curveball I’m going to throw into this, sometimes we want to think we’re the only one ’cause that’s powerful too, and that’s okay. Pretty soon we find out that we’re not the only one. Thanks be to God, there are ones all over the place, uniquely trying to do the right thing. And when we find each other, we’re stronger, and when we acknowledge each other, we’re stronger.

Drew Jackson:

A lot of us are experiencing being divided from family, from friends, from neighbors. It’s very real. And so I guess what advice would you have for people who are standing in the gap, who are stepping up, who are experiencing having those relationships sever with family, with friends, with those that are near and dear to them? What advice would you have for them as they’re navigating those very real consequences of being the remnant?

Jaqui Lewis:

Yeah, thank you for that. I want to say two things about that. The first one very pastoral. It is really a tender place when you are the one in your family system, the one in your office, the one in your workplace, the one in your community group who is swimming against the current, going against the flow, saying the hard thing. So I want you to take care of yourself, if you’re listening to this and that’s how you’re feeling yourself. To own your feelings about that, to own the sadness about that, to own the loneliness of that, to seek help around that, to talk to a friend about that, if you have one, or your partner, your support team, a therapist, even. Raise a flag and say, “I need help.”

The other comment is more kind of prophetic maybe, is we need those going against the grain people. We need those speaking the truth people. God needs you, the kingdom of God needs you. The movements of love and justice need you to be brave and to find your people. So, that second part is you’re needed. You’re needed. It’s needed. That person who leaves the house with the sign is needed and the person who stands on the bridge is needed, and the person who writes the notes in the social media is needed, needed. This podcast is needed, so that there’s a momentum, a garnishing of truth that heals the world. We need that. That’s two.

Maybe the third one is find those 7,000, find those people. Find your people. Jesus is standing on the edge of the whatever, wherever he’s standing, and the there’s your mom and dad are out, your mom and your brothers are out here. He’s like, “Well, the people who are my family are the people who are doing the will of God.” Find your people, because they’re there, and they will love you.

Mike Petrow:

So appreciate the reminder. I’m curious, how do you think we can stay plugged in, keep our eyes open, but also stay sane in the 24-hour news cycle without getting overwhelmed and becoming cynical or selfish or numb?

Jaqui Lewis:

You ask a person who’s not always good at that, but unplugging. I do think we almost just have to give ourselves a routine, a diet, a schedule, structure for how we’ll engage. I don’t turn on the news as often as I used to, but I turn it on because I want to know what’s going on. So which is the one thing, this is me, Jaqui, that I’m going to watch that’s going to give me a sense of what’s going on?

So I think it’s something about choosing how to consume media, and we’re in charge of that. Partaking of media in a way that makes sense to you and is logical is an important thing I would suggest. I would also say it’s difficult to be human on a planet and put your head in the sand. So, this might not go well with all the people that are listening, but I’m just not watching it and I just don’t know.

Is that responsible? Is that faithful? Is it? Because if you don’t know at all, you don’t know where to send your superpowers, you don’t know where to send your donations, you don’t know where to send your prayers, your compassion. So, some kind of balance of staying connected in a way that is good for your soul, but to plug in, because you’re human and because of Ubuntu we are inextricably connected to each other. You can’t love your neighbor if you don’t know what your neighbor’s going through, is what I’m trying to say.

So how can you do that? Maybe you follow a few trusted leaders, and that helps you to think about what your neighbor’s going through. Maybe there’s three or four things you’re interested in, and you follow three or four leaders around those things so you can know, “This is the call to action. This is a place I can give. This is a place I can pray. This is someone who needs help.” I think that’s important, and it keeps us grounded.

Mike Petrow:

First of all, one, thank you for the permission for some folks to hear, “Watch the news less.” Thank you for the reminder, “Don’t completely unplug,” ’cause how can we love our neighbor if we don’t know what our neighbor’s going through? That’s so good, including our neighbor nations. And God, that’s powerful.

In balancing all of that, Jaqui, I mentioned at the top of the conversation that I’ve seen you lead your congregation through so much, and we are responding to crisis and hurt all over the world on a degree that is overwhelming. And on top of that, life keeps happening. Babies are still being born, friends of ours are still getting married, and other couples are breaking up. There’s still dinner out with the person that you care about, familial responsibilities.

And I know this is tender to mention, and I hope it’s okay to share. Jaqui, in the time I’ve also watched you say goodbye to your father. And as Drew and I both have lost parents early, it was so meaningful to me to listen to you openly talk about navigating that with a full heart.

I think my question for you is, how do we balance all the hurt and all the need to take action on behalf of loving our neighbor in the world with also being a full human who’s fully present to the continued reality of just being a loving presence in the world, and doing life and doing family, taking care of ourselves? Drew, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Jaqui Lewis:

This idea of loving our neighbor and loving ourself. This is fundamental to Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, almost every major religion. Drew, do you want to take that from here and I’ll pop back in?

Drew Jackson:

Yeah, Mike, I think this question is so important because it’s real. How do we hold the grief that we’re all carrying collectively, and how do we hold the grief that is personal to our lived experience? And I think for me, one of the things is the recognition that our grief is one, that it’s not separate and parceled out. That for me to actively do the work of getting in touch with the grief of losing my mother is also to be, in a mystical way, in touch with the grief of my Palestinian kin who are losing mothers. They’re not separate.

So what does it mean for me to be fully present to that, and to allow whatever it is to do its work in me, on me? So I think that’s been really crucial for me over the years, to just hold those things as one, and to allow the grief that I do experience in my own life to actually drive me closer to my neighbor’s grief, because they’re not separate.

Jaqui Lewis:

I love that so much, Drew. It does take me back into that,” I am who I am because you are who you are,” that we are inextricably connected. That when you cut a tree, Alice Walker would say, you bleed. How trees have connected roots, we are each other’s people. And if we really believe that, that changes our policy decisions, it changes our tax codes, right? It changes the way we govern. It changes the way we live, changes the way we consume, the way we shop, how we eat.

And so I’m working on both the universality of fat and the particularity of my responsibility in that. And I want to add into it also, we’re responsible to love us. I’m responsible to take care of this body, this body that infleshes God, that is the host of the divine, that is a love shack, if you will.

If God is love, and if everywhere love is God is, God lives in us, God takes up residence in us, that makes us love shacks. We’re responsible to make sure God’s house is all right. Eat your food, drink your water, get some exercise, get some sleep, laugh, play.

And if I step out and take a Sabbath, take a breath, I’m better able to do the work that God was requiring of me. And I can count on you, y’all who are listening to do your part where you are, and that’s how the world will be healed.

Mike Petrow:

Thank you so much for that. That’s perfect. That’s what I needed to hear today. Thank you.

Drew Jackson:

Well, Jaqui, I just want to thank you for all of the wisdom, your presence, the love, and as we bring this conversation to a close, I want to just invite you to leave our listeners with a blessing as they consider being the remnant, stepping into that space of standing up for justice and love, and the costliness of that.

Jaqui Lewis:

Friends, let me remind you, as the psalmist says in 139, “You are awesomely and wonderfully made in the image of the Holy. There’s nowhere you go. There’s nothing you do. If you make your bed in heavenly places, if you make your bed in the midst of hell, even there, God’s love will find you.”

And it can feel really hellish right in here. There’s so much happening. So we are not alone. We are not alone. We are surrounded by a love that will not let us go. Let it be your North Star. Write it on your hand, put it on your mirror, put it in your phone, “I am loved by love itself.” And in the end, love will win.

Drew Jackson:

Amen.

Mike Petrow:

Amen.

Jaqui Lewis:

Amen.

Mike Petrow:

Drew, what an episode, what a conversation. I feel such a calling in this chapter, the remnant. There is a calling to be the remnant. I know for each of us in our own way to embody that. And I love when Richard says, “God is saving all of history and all of humanity, but only with the direct conscious help of a faithful few.” And we’re hearing, in both of these conversations today, the invitation to be a part of that faithful few who engages in the saving action, not on our own behalf, not on our own individual salvation project, but on the of everyone. That’s a pretty big deal.

Drew Jackson:

And as we got into with Jaqui, that can feel sometimes very lonely, to feel like you’re the only one who is stepping up or speaking out, or challenging your uncle at the dinner table. But I think one of the pieces of wisdom from this chapter, and from Richard, is that those small acts matter, that all of them matter.

And it’s like the image of the mustard seed that starts small and grows into this large tree that is giving shade to all, or the yeast, the leaven, the dough that is almost imperceptible. You can’t see it. You don’t even know it’s there, but it causes the whole thing to rise. And so it’s those small acts that are necessary for the transformation of the whole. That is remnant wisdom.

Mike Petrow:

It’s funny, Drew, there was a moment in the episode with our conversation with Richard where he acknowledged being almost overwhelmed by how big all of it is. And that could be discouraging, where I’m sitting here with Richard Rohr, whose writings and teachings I think have change the world. And he’s saying, “Gosh, it’s overwhelming to think about confronting so much big evil and big injustice.”

But I actually found that really encouraging and empowering, because it means if Richard Rohr is allowed to feel that way, I’m allowed to have moments where I’m like, “Oh my God, it’s all so much.” And then after I feel that way, to remember exactly what you just said, about the value of the mustard seed and the little bit of yeast, and the tiny critical mass that Richard talks about, the tiny little action that can have a big, big effect. And I realize I’m not throwing water balloons at a wildfire. I’m finding my place to carry my bucket in the bucket brigade. When all of us do our small part, then we really can be that remnant, and like Richard talks about, a catalyst for the transformation of culture in the world.

Drew Jackson:

And it’s the way that things have worked throughout history, right? It’s always that small critical mass that has carried the work of love forward. I think of the beginnings of the civil rights movement, there was the small group of students who were gathered in basements, university basements, and learning how to nonviolently resist, that then sparked the student movement, the sit-in movement. But it started small and then it started to grow and grow and grow.

Mike Petrow:

And I think, Drew, about how that’s the other side of what Richard was saying when he’s talking to us about the danger of scapegoating, where he’s like, “Look, don’t just find three or four really bad folks to hang it all on, but recognize this is a systemic injustice. It’s a sick society, it’s a collective evil, and it requires a collective response.”

The other side of that is not looking for just the two or three heroes who are going to get it done on their own, but realizing it is all of us. It’s all of us, in our own little local way, being a part of that remnant and being a part of that movement. I’m curious, Drew, for you, how has this inspired you to embody being the remnant in your own life and reality?

Drew Jackson:

Yeah. I think there are a couple of things that come to mind for me. I think about this in the small act of writing poetry. And I often think about what does poetry have to do with revolution? What does poetry have to do with transformation? And every time I show up to the page and I get to write a poem, it’s like, “How can this contribute to moving us toward greater and greater love?” And that words matter in that sense. The smallness of the words we write, the words we speak are actually contributing to the world that we inhabit. The words create worlds idea. So I think about that a lot.

Another thing is just in the locality of the community that I’m living in. I live in Brooklyn, New York, and I’m thinking about, what does it mean in this very concrete place to contribute to transformation at the local level? I think there are so many little ways that we can show up and think about, what is the power that we hold in our spheres of influence, and how can we do what is ours to do with what we have, trusting that it’s contributing to a larger movement that’s happening?

Mike Petrow:

I had a mentor who used to say, “The pain that you can feel is the pain that’s yours to heal.” And having had lost a family member to mental health issues, I’m thinking so deeply about so many of my friends who are going through a hard time right now, and trying to build extra time in to check on my friends and say,” Hey, just how are you doing? How are you feeling? You doing all right this week? I just want you to know you matter.” And especially my activist friends who are out on the front line, friends down at the border and other places, to just be like, “Do you need anything? Do you need to shout into the void? Is there anything I can send you? Is there a way I can encourage you?”

And I think those little things really matter, and I hope we can encourage our listeners to ask the question. If we can leave you with a question this week, how can you be a part of the remnant in the community right around you and in our beloved human community, what is something that you can do? What are some things that you can do to plant those mustard seeds? Right? Drew, take the final word. What would you leave our listeners with?

Drew Jackson:

Yeah, and I think in addition to the question of, what can you do to contribute? Who can you do it with? To find, like we talked about with the Jaqui, the 7,000 others who have not capitulated to these things and who are trying to resist. And there are others, there are others in your place who are thinking about these things, who might feel alone themselves. Find each other, conspire together. Think about how to create some good trouble together. This is what it means to be a part of the remnant.

Mike Petrow:

Remember, you are not alone. Go find the helpers and be the helpers. I love that, Drew. Thanks everyone as always for listening. We will be back next month with another episode, looking deeper into The Tears of Things. I think the next episode is looking at holy disorder. So that’s going to be a really, really exciting one, and can’t wait to spend some time with you all again soon. Drew, always a joy.

Drew Jackson:

Always.

Corey Wayne:

Thanks for listening to this podcast by the Center for Action and Contemplation, an educational nonprofit that introduces seekers to the contemplative Christian path of transformation. To learn more about our work, visit us at cac.org. Everything Belongs is made possible thanks to the generosity of our supporters and the shared work of.

Mike Petrow:

Mike Petrow.

Paul Swanson:

Paul Swanson.

Drew Jackson:

Drew Jackson.

Carmen Acevedo Butcher:

Carmen Acevedo Butcher.

Jenna Keiper:

Jenna Keiper.

Izzy Spitz:

Izzy Spitz.

Megan Hare:

Megan Hare.

Sarah Palmer:

Sarah Palmer,

Dorothy Abrahams:

Dorothy Abrahams.

Brandon Strange:

Brandon Strange.

Vanessa Yee:

Vanessa Yee.

Corey Wayne:

And me, Corey Wayne. The music you hear is composed and provided by our friends Hammock, and we’d also like to thank Sound On Studios for all of their work in post-production. From the high desert of New Mexico, we wish you peace and every good.